The #1 Mindfulness Idea to Apply to Your PMDD with Nikki Wilson
I discovered Nikki Wilson’s Mindfulness work when I was in the throes of my own birth trauma drama, which ultimately led to a diagnosis of PTSD. While I was searching for help & support and seeking out a diagnosis, I needed something to help me survive and get through the difficult early days of new motherhood. At that time, Nikki had created, and was single-handedly running, a Mindfulness for Mums program, called 10 of Zen. I joined this group and felt so seen, so normal, and also, got some really valuable tools and tricks and developed skills, in the process, that helped me manage through anxiety, panic attacks, dissociating from my body, etc. etc., so that I could ‘stress less, and love more’ as Nikki would always say.
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Nikki Wilson has a strong passion for driving social change. Her third sector career has focused on solving strategic challenges and building organisations from scratch including Make Birth Better, 10 of Zen, Wings for Life UK and Read International. Based in the UK, Nikki runs the ship and shapes the strategy for Make Birth Better and her deep drive comes from her lived experience of birth trauma.
In our chat, Nikki and I discuss…
-The charade of perfection
Being present, not perfect
That the full spectrum of emotions is normal
That the aim is not to feel better, but to get better at feeling
-The single nugget of mindfulness wisdom that Nikki still carries with her every day
-And her own experiences with birth trauma, dyslexia, and ADHD
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Title: The #1 Mindfulness Idea to Apply to Your PMDD with Nikki Wilson
Episode number: 19
Date: 04.05.24
Speakers: Diane DeJesus, RD, IBCLC (host) · Nikki Wilson (guest)
EXCERPT (00:00)
I was like, okay, I needed that. I needed your kindness and mine. Because sometimes it's so sticky that we can't kind of push past it. But I think that's where it is. It's when we are fallible, when we act in ways we're not proud of, that that's where the compassion really, really counts. When we've messed up, when we've made a mistake and saying to our kids, you know, I'm really sorry, didn't get that right, but you know what? We all make mistakes. That's, I think, the power particularly.
And then also with people that trigger you, that activate, that make something activate your nervous system, right? We all know, we've all got a suite, a handful of people that we know there's just something almost indescribable about that connection. It doesn't feel comfortable. Just being able to soothe ourselves with, listen, they wish to be happy and healthy, just like I do. I wish to be happy and healthy, just like I do. And doing what we can to bring ourselves back to that sense of common humanity. And I think that is also really powerful in the sticky bits.
INTRO (01:13)
If you want to learn how you can live better with PMDD, this podcast was created for you. This is Mindfulness for PMDD with Diane. I'm Diane and I'm a registered dietitian and lactation consultant. I'm also a mom, a PMDD warrior, and a trauma-informed mindfulness teacher. And this is where I discuss topics related to PMDD through the lens of mindfulness and meditation and where I share all about how mindfulness has gotten me to a place of greater peace and acceptance with my PMDD.
I also chat with people who have helped and inspired me along the way so they can share their wisdom with you too. So let's get started.
SAFETY NOTE / DISCLAIMER (02:00)
This podcast is not a substitute for psychological therapy or medical advice. Please take care when listening to this podcast, as some may find certain words or subjects triggering or difficult to hear. Take only what serves you and leave the rest behind.
WHEN MINDFULNESS BECOMES SOMETHING THAT HELPS YOU SURVIVE (02:14)
I discovered Nikki Wilson's mindfulness work when I was dealing with my own birth trauma, which ultimately led to a diagnosis of PTSD. And while I was searching for help and support and seeking out a diagnosis, I needed something to help me survive and get through those difficult early days of new motherhood.
At that time, Nikki had created and was single-handedly running a mindfulness for moms program called 10 of Zen. This was when I was living in London. I joined this group and I felt so seen, so normal, and also got some really valuable tools and tricks and developed skills in the process that helped me manage through anxiety, panic attacks, dissociating from my body, so that I could, as Nikki would always say, stress less and love more.
Nikki Wilson has a strong passion for driving social change. Her third sector career has focused on solving strategic challenges and building organizations from scratch, including Make Birth Better, 10 of Zen, Wings for Life UK, and Read International.
Based in the UK, Nikki runs the ship and shapes the strategy for Make Birth Better, and her deep drive comes from her lived experience of birth trauma. In our chat, Nikki and I discuss the charade of perfection. We talk about the idea of being present, not perfect, and how the full spectrum of emotions is normal, and that the aim of mindfulness is not to feel better, but to get better at feeling.
We also discuss the single nugget of mindfulness wisdom that Nikki still carries with her every day and her own experience of birth trauma. So, without further ado, please enjoy my chat with Nikki Wilson.
THE TEACHER WHO FIRST SHOWED ME PRESENT, NOT PERFECT (04:37)
Diane: So welcome, Nikki.
Nikki: Hello, Diane. Thank you for having me.
Diane: Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to have you joining me today. Nikki, I want to start out by, if you will, just telling us a bit about yourself and what you do.
Nikki: Oh, you know, it depends which hat I'm wearing. Same like everybody else. What I do when I'm not being paid to work is I run around the house, putting piles of washing in different places and asking my children to do things that they don't listen to, having conversations with my husband about who's going to pick up the bin that the fox went through last night. So that's what I do as a parent, which is, you know, most of the time.
Nikki: And then when I'm being paid to work, I've worked in the third sector, the charity sector, for all of my career, really, for the best part of the last 20 or so years. And across that time, I've worked for all kinds of organizations, big and small, across a whole range of causes. And over that time, I've come to really learn that my passion is about what's often called social entrepreneurship.
Nikki: So especially kind of looking at problems that need a fix and coming up with solutions to get good done is often the phrase I use. That's my real passion, is being close to action and kind of enterprising solutions to challenges.
Diane: Yeah, I love that. And if you're comfortable, do you want to share a little bit about the organization you're with currently?
Nikki: Yeah, of course. So I'm sure we'll come on to it, Diane, but obviously you and I met when I was running a kind of social business startup called 10 of Zen. So that was all about mindfulness for parents.
Nikki: And then in 2020, gosh, the year we will all never forget, kind of a coming together of things happened. And I'd met a number of people because of my work in kind of maternal mental health, who taught me a lot about the experiences I had been through. By this point, I'd become aware that I'd suffered from birth trauma and postnatal PTSD after the birth of my first son in 2014.
Nikki: So I met a couple of professionals, a psychiatrist and a psychologist, who were working together to create an enterprising solution to the challenges that surround postnatal PTSD, birth trauma, and its prevention and diagnosis and treatment. And I kind of joined them at a point where they just really needed some help to figure out what the best solution was going to be.
Nikki: So that was kind of in 2020. I said I would step in and kind of work to professionalize the work that started. So I took on an organization that's called Make Birth Better, and our mission is to end suffering from birth trauma. So we're a unique collective of parents and professionals. We're working together across lots of different areas to, yeah, make birth better for all, particularly marginalized groups.
Diane: And the work you all do at Make Birth Better is just so important. Well, firstly, I have benefited in a personal way as someone who has experienced my own birth trauma. And of course, as you know, when I've been able to, I have tried to give back to Make Birth Better in my own volunteer efforts.
Diane: But as you say, I first came to know you when I joined your 10 of Zen program, which was a program of mindfulness for moms that you had founded yourself. And so you were my first mindfulness teacher. As I mentioned before, it means so much to me to have you here chatting with me today because what you offered in that program really got me through some of the toughest times when I was grappling with becoming a mom and working through postpartum PTSD, and then right off of that developing PMDD, and then COVID times. Yeah, that was a crazy time.
Diane: And so you've already alluded to this a little bit, but can you talk a bit more about how you got started with mindfulness and your own personal mindfulness journey? And then what made you want to share that with other moms as a mindfulness teacher?
FINDING A TOOL WHEN YOUR BODY DOESN’T FEEL SAFE (09:38)
Nikki: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for sharing that, Diane. It's a lot, isn't it? Everyone's been through a lot in the last few years. I mean, that's just a constant way that life is, isn't it? And thank you for your kind words there.
Nikki: So I think, for a lot of us, something happens, there's often a real coming together of things, isn't there, when we become parents, particularly for the first time, but not always that way. For me, it was experiences I had had in my life before I had become a parent merged with the experience of pregnancy and birth. And I, at that time, didn't understand that this kind of collision of experiences was coming hurtling towards me.
Nikki: I didn't understand why I was feeling so mentally unwell at that time, particularly in those kind of 2014, 15, and 16. Mindfulness was part of the picture, the melting pot of the toolkit of things that, at that time, were really helping me.
Nikki: So anyone who has, I mean, most people at any time in their life will have experienced symptoms of trauma related to a multitude of different things. But this, and I think, you know, there are some of us who are just perhaps more susceptible. Those of us who are perhaps a bit more highly sensitive emotionally, or very tapped into the world and the way the world feels around us.
Nikki: And I think a lot of what I probably didn't even really understand until I had kids, the anxiety, the adrenaline, the nervous energy that lived in my body very strongly before I had children, was definitely kind of part of a trauma story I never really understood until I became really unwell.
Nikki: And then it wasn't until I had Thomas in 2014 that I had any idea that you could be that mentally unwell. I didn't know that you could believe that you might never leave your house again, that you might struggle to fall asleep every night because you thought you were dying, that you might feel so oversensitized by the world that the only place that felt even vaguely safe was your bed.
Nikki: And such a profoundly shocking and really challenging experience in many ways. It's my privilege that it only happened to me when I was age 30, because a lot of people are living with that kind of complex PTSD all the time.
Nikki: And in that mix of like, what on earth is happening to me? What is wrong with me? What is this? Of course, people throw lots of different potential thoughts around, understandably so, on what might be going on. No one mentioned PTSD or trauma until two years later. And therefore it was a merry old mix of like, what can we possibly do? What can I possibly do to feel less on edge and safe in the world and to show up even as a shadow of my former self?
Nikki: That was kind of the goal. You know, really, really thought I would never, ever get better again. And mindfulness kind of came in that space as part, and I always, at the time of 10 of Zen days, I would talk a lot about makeup, medication, meditation, because it never felt like it was one thing that helped me through that time. But meditation and discovering mindfulness was something that did have a really significant role to play, particularly in those years where I was really, really unwell.
Nikki: And I think it's really important always, isn't it, Diane, when we're sharing these insights, that that won't be the case for everybody. And some people, particularly suffering from trauma symptoms, may find that mindfulness is like the worst possible thing that they could do, to be encouraged to sit with their own thoughts. So it's not by all means a fix-all for everybody and never should be kind of marketed that way either.
Nikki: But for me, my best friend sent me a book, which was Mindfulness for Beginners, Mark Williams, kind of one of the most well-known people who've really kind of brought this and professionalized and medicalized almost this work as a potential intervention for stress. And I read that book, and I probably read that book, and I'm dyslexic, so I don't properly read many books.
Nikki: It was a really guided program and all the meditations were very short. They were never really more than 10 minutes, eight to maybe 12 minutes. And it had kind of suggestions for how you might use them. And what began to happen was, you know, like anyone that's trying to get better, when you find something that's working for you, even if it's just for the short term, you kind of get quite obsessed about it, right? Because you're so desperate to feel okay.
Nikki: So I started kind of a pretty regular daily 10-minute meditation. And my son, and my husband, he was a really chatty baby. We probably convinced ourselves he said 10 of Zen. He probably didn't. But anyway, Rob started saying to Thomas, Mommy's gone for her 10 of Zen. So 10 minutes of meditation. And he was a really articulate little boy, so for being little, he would say these words, or at least we thought he would say these words, 10 of Zen.
Nikki: So it's just an affectionate term that we came up with. And then it was a habit, certainly for those years, that very much stuck. It stuck with me through my return to work. And it was definitely a part of what supported me through my next pregnancy, which I never thought I'd get that far.
Nikki: And then after my pregnancy with Mattie, my second, I just had this itch I really needed to scratch about, you know, I was well enough at that point to feel like there was something in this here. There was something just as part of a mix of soothing tools I wanted to be able to offer to other mums. I thought could help them to stress less and love more. Those were my kind of two adages. So, yeah, that's how it began.
Diane: I love that story so much. I'm not sure that I had ever heard that story before about your child and your husband calling it 10 of Zen.
Diane: You mentioned so many things that I loved and just want to highlight because they really resonate with me. You mentioned that you perhaps didn't maybe realize or identify or acknowledge your past anxiety and traumas so much prior to the PTSD associated with the birth experience. And I've come to have a similar experience where I've always known I've had underlying anxiety and depression has come and gone, but it wasn't until the process of getting really involved with mindfulness in order to help with PTSD and PMDD that I started to also see the benefit on many things that had always been there that I perhaps didn't really acknowledge.
Diane: Maybe even if I, on some level, knew they were there previously, it was almost like I didn't want to acknowledge them or wasn't ready to work on them. And so that stuff really couldn't, I wasn't able to see it very clearly until I was doing this work to try to feel better for these other reasons.
Nikki: Yes, yes, yes.
Diane: And, you know, you also mentioned that, I guess you said it took a couple of years before you got a PTSD diagnosis and you were looking around for what can I possibly do here to feel some relief. And I think this is a very common thing that people go through when they are suffering or experiencing a challenging time in their lives and they don't really have many answers. It's like, well, okay, I may not have an answer yet, but I still have to figure out how to live, to go on throughout my life. Right?
Nikki: Yeah.
Diane: And I can relate to that a great deal, and I know that many people with PMDD can as well, given that I believe it takes an average of 12 years to get a diagnosis.
Nikki: Yeah. Yeah.
Diane: And as you say, you know, when we're going through something like this, there may be many things that we're doing to help to get through our day and feel some relief from whatever it is we're feeling. But for me too, I like to say that mindfulness was sort of my anchor among all those things in the toolbox. I think it even helped many of the other tools to be, or to feel, more effective.
Nikki: Yeah. Yeah.
Diane: Because I was creating that space between myself and my thoughts and feelings.
Nikki: Yeah. So powerful.
Diane: So with that, you know, as you know, I sent you some questions in advance and I feel this next one is a little bit...
Nikki: I don't mind, I like abstract.
Diane: Well, you know, it's just so overwhelming in a good way to have your own mindfulness teacher in front of you and being able to ask anything you want to ask. And I just, there were so many things I'd love to pick your brain about, but in the end, I just became very curious if there is, like, one thing among them all, like a single nugget of wisdom that you sort of have taken from your time of practicing mindfulness for yourself and then sharing mindfulness with other moms, that is kind of like that one big thing that you carry with you every day.
THE KINDNESS PRACTICE THAT MATTERS MOST IN THE STICKY BITS (21:14)
Nikki: Yeah, that's so lovely. That doesn't feel abstract at all. Gosh. I work with a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists. They ask me really abstract things all the time. Like, oh, okay, like really, really, really reflective questions.
Nikki: So my main thing I go to with this, like without a second thought always, is the work around self-compassion. Because I think of all the things that had the most lasting effect on me, our own ability to soothe ourselves and be kind to ourselves and nurture a nicer tone of voice in the way that we address ourselves.
Nikki: I still find that they call it metta meditation, don't they? And it's kind of compassion-based meditation in Buddhist practice. I still find that by far the most moving and poignant type of meditation for me. So the love stuff is what I always used to call it, isn't it Diane, with 10 of Zen. But it's by no means the easiest practice. And perhaps I find it easier because, you know, I've got certain personality traits that kind of predispose me to find switching on that love stuff easier than some people do. Because some people just literally can't. First, like, metta meditation, not my thing, just really struggle.
Nikki: But it helps me all the time. I think particularly when you know you're going into scenarios that you find very stirring. So let's say like a friendship group that's always a bit sticky or family gathering that you just know that you're always going to dread a bit, or a conversation that you're not looking forward to with a loved one.
Nikki: And those mantras of, you know, may I be safe and free from suffering. May we be as happy and as healthy as it is possible to be. May we have the courage just to be. Those three things, I think they're just like embraced on my brain as a really useful mantra that I hold more often than any other type of meditational practice. I could give you multiple other nuggets, but if it's just one, that is the one that I would say I rely on the most.
Diane: I love that. And I don't know if it's funny, but as I say, it's so funny that you say that because I find myself coming back to that one often as well. And I think it's because we turn it, we say these kind words to ourselves and we turn it around and say these, you know, put these kind words out there toward others.
Diane: And I find that when I'm struggling, it helps me just as much to remember to be kind to myself as it does to remember that we are all one, living with our own challenges. I love being reminded of that common humanity because I find that often when I'm feeling uncomfortable in, like you say, maybe a social situation, or I'm just feeling really irritable even in my household with my child and my partner, being reminded of that helps me to be more kind, helps me also to remember that a lot of times those feelings of irritability towards someone else are not coming from that person. They're coming from within me and my own difficult feelings that I'm working with.
Nikki: Yeah, of course. And I think so importantly, the reverse side is befriending that irritability, because the pressure we put on ourselves, which of course starts with the societal narrative of what makes a good mom and what constitutes a good girl and all of that stuff, is about not being irritable and being calm and always showing up in the best way for our children and not making mistakes at work or in the home, or like burning the baking. I don't do baking, but you know what I mean? Like, you know, not, I'm going to swear now, but not fucking up.
Nikki: And we crucify ourselves, many of us, when we show up in a way that brings up shame for us, or we show up in a way that was very significantly less than perfect, or actually, that was just even slightly less than perfect. And it's applying it in those scenarios, I think, is where the power is. That like hand on the heart to say, I'm a fallible human being and made a mistake, and having certain friends, right?
Nikki: I had an awful day a couple of weeks ago where I shouted at my daughter so loud that my immediate thought was, oh my God, I'm going to text my neighbor so she thinks I'm crazy, crazy mom. It was such a lioness roar because she's a toddler. She'd driven me to total and utter distraction. I had contributed to this because I was trying to put her down for a nap, also get ready for a team meeting. Like it was, of course, in my head, it's totally my fault, but I just lost it, right?
Nikki: And knowing the friends to text in that moment who I knew were going to give me the compassion I needed, the friend who came over and just said to me, listen, every minute of beautiful mothering you've given to that child outweighs every moment that you have, you know, shouted, screamed and all the rest, gave me a hug. And I was like, okay, I needed that. I needed your kindness and mine, because sometimes it's so sticky that we can't kind of push past it.
Nikki: But I think that's where it is. When we are fallible, when we act in ways we're not proud of, that's where the compassion really, really counts. When we've messed up or we've made a mistake and saying to our kids, you know, I'm really sorry. Didn't get that right, but you know what? We all make mistakes. That's, I think, the power particularly.
Nikki: And then also with people that trigger you, that activate, that make something activate your nervous system, right? We all know, we've all got a suite, a handful of people that we know there's just something almost indescribable about that connection. It doesn't feel comfortable. Just being able to soothe ourselves with, listen, they wish to be happy and healthy, just like I do. I wish to be happy and healthy, just like I do. And doing what we can to bring ourselves back to that sense of common humanity. And I think that is also really powerful in the sticky bits.
Nikki: What I will say, Diane, though, is when I have been my most unwell, and particularly when depression has been a big thing, it has not even felt possible to access the power of these mantras. Yes. Right, so I think that we have to be so honest about that. This is going to work for people at certain times in certain moments. It's always in my back pocket. I can pull it out when the flavor of the day is right. But if you're really unwell mentally and depression is a big part of that picture, this can feel just so unreachable. You just don't believe any of this stuff when you're feeling really, really not right.
Nikki: So again, I just always like to keep it very measured because I know that when I faced some depression again towards the end of 2019, and it was coming around again, I was like, nothing could even, the compassion didn't get close to helping me. So, you know, what do you do then?
STARTING SMALL WHEN MINDFULNESS FEELS OUT OF REACH (29:39)
Diane: Thank you for saying that, because that is so true and so powerful, I think, for people to hear. And also I love that you brought that up because as you were talking, I was thinking back to how, and this is something I try to share as well, so I'd love to get your thoughts on this, but I was thinking back on how when I was sort of doubling down on my mindfulness with PMDD, I found that ways that I had been meditating or trying to kind of do mindfulness exercises in the past just weren't working for me and how I was feeling and my limited capacity.
Diane: And I found that I had to, I think, do two things. One, try to really go back to starting small and easy. I did so many just mindful walks, because I was trying to get out in the fresh air anyway. And even my walks started really small, just down the block. And then maybe I would just do, you know, a few minutes-long meditation versus something 10 or 15 or 20 minutes long.
Diane: But the other really big thing was trying to journal or take a mindful walk or do a meditation on the days that I felt good, because, you know, PMDD is cyclical. There's a couple of weeks of feeling good and feeling more like myself. And so I was able to get more into a practice by doing those practices, training my brain more during the good times. Because you're right. You really can't catch yourself in a moment when you're really struggling, when you're really struggling, when your depression is deep.
Nikki: Yeah. It's really hard.
Diane: Okay. Yeah. So I wonder if you have any thoughts about that. Like if someone is wanting to bring more mindfulness into their life, what are your thoughts on that? On like trying to start small or not pushing yourself to create a practice and feeling awful.
Nikki: I mean, Diane, I could let you talk for hours. And I can talk for hours. I'm going to really try not to, but I listened to this great podcast a long time ago, but it was a kind of scientific interpretation of why establishing meditation as a habit is really, really, really hard for everybody. Bar a small number of people that either, you know, perhaps have the right type of personality or are particularly motivated by this. But generally, coming to this with the aspiration of I'm going to have a regular meditation practice for the rest of my life, it's probably not a fair expectation for anybody.
Nikki: I think as someone that now currently does not practice every day, I have benefited so much from learning about the topic in its broadest form, right? So regardless of whether you want to sit down and meditate and actively practice kind of learning to observe your thoughts as events of the mind and not as facts and all the great things that do come from that really dedicated, regular sitting down, aside from that, there are some just amazing principles that can serve us all the time.
Nikki: So, yes, yes, I like that principle of you named it with that kind of mindful walking exercise. We're not going to stand half a chance of slowing all of our lives down. And particularly if most people are drawn to this work are people who are not good at being slow, right? So, yes, they're very good at being busy and not being mindful, if you like.
Nikki: So it's about just, I think, that lesson of where can you integrate less rush? Where are your little pockets? Where could you just maybe do something a bit more slowly? Could it be a walk? You know, I'm fortunate. Two days a week, I still look after my daughter, our daughter, I should say, and there are moments in those days where, for example, she might really want to walk up the hill to our house. Normally, I say no, but every now and then, yes. And I think I'm just going to go really slowly up this hill and we're just going to let her be beautifully mindful as a child.
Nikki: And then my learning from having shouted at her so loudly a couple of weeks ago was I know those things happen because I'm rushing her. So yesterday, when we were at home, I took her upstairs and I had the privilege of having time to not rush her to get to bed, knowing that's what we needed to get to for nap time. It's like, I'm just going to let this have a normal flow. So we might have to talk five times about needing to sit on the potty before we go to bed, but that's fine. We can do it five times. We might read three books instead of two today. So what? And you know what? The whole process took me almost 50 minutes, but it was so lovely.
Nikki: And that's one of the principles, the principle of looking for pockets of opportunity to slow something down. It's just a great principle for all of us all the time. The love stuff, I think once you've learned those principles of just even engaging in a little bit of kind talk or noticing, you know, giving that gift to others and saying to your friends, don't talk to yourself that way. Like, I really have noticed that you do this and that, and offering that to others, even if it's hard to offer to yourself, I think is really key.
Nikki: And then the last one that I so think a lot about is this me, my, and I, just knowing that psychoeducation of knowing that our brains are wired in such a way. We're always going to be hooked on narratives and stories. Most of them are stories that are wrapped around me and my and I, a story about me, my life, my existence, my family, my needs, my house, my cleaning, my old whatever it is.
Nikki: And just knowing that is really useful because I think when you have these moments every now and then you realize that, my God, I'm just so totally consumed in my own world and me, my, and I. And you have those moments, don't you, where perhaps you hear someone else's story, and I'm privileged in my job right now, I hear a lot of stories where you think, wow, people go through a lot. But you hear a story and it lifts you out of your very focused me, my, and I lens.
Nikki: And when you feel that happening, I think that's another lesson that mindfulness teaches you. It's that, oh yeah, actually, that's what we're reaching for. We're reaching for less time in the me, my, and I bucket, a bit more time in the reality of what is actually the present moment, which is not very bound up in our little stories. It's actually just all unfolding around us, and we’re not supposed to pay any attention to it because we're so caught in our own heads.
Nikki: So perhaps for anyone wanting to get into mindfulness, but worried about the habit, yeah, the habit is going to be really hard to form. You may form it. You may not. You will fall off the Zen train, as we used to call it. You might get back on. But there are some really beautiful principles worth learning about because they're kind of philosophies for life, I think. And they are things that still really underpin my life, even though I'm not holding a regular practice anymore.
THERE IS NO PERFECT WAY TO PRACTICE MINDFULNESS (37:35)
Diane: Yes, and thank you for saying that about, you know, you don't practice every single day and we are going to fall off the Zen train. I don't practice every day. And I do think many of us think, though, when we consider what we think mindfulness or meditation is, or what we think it should look like, I think we often assume that we do need to do it all the time, every day, and be perfect about it.
Nikki: I mean, and that would be great. The science says, if you do that, that's where the real brain change happens. That's where neurologically your brain can change to become more hardwired for compassion, to be living more in the present moment. I mean, aspirationally, what a wonderful thing to aspire for. But I just noticed that it's completely incongruent with the modern world and also the way human nature works and the way the Western world works to integrate that and not be living in a spiritual community is very hard.
Nikki: And I know, like long term, I've got this little kind of dream one day when I'm much, much older and kids are gone and all the rest. I'd love to join some kind of Buddhist community voluntarily and have that be part of my everyday life. But right now, there's not the space for that.
Nikki: And yeah, it's very interesting because also my brother is, I'm sure he'll never listen to this, undiagnosed autistic, and he is very obsessive about his meditation. And it is absolutely something which really, really helps him manage when he gets dysregulated. And he's very, very tied to Buddhist philosophy and everything that goes around it. So there are people who can hook into it and hold the practice, but they are in the minority.
Nikki: And I remember this, we always hold certain analogies, don't we? This is definitely not a word-for-word version of what the analogy was when it was first told to me, but something around the lines of, you know, like in a garden, obviously, the sun comes across different times a day, different bits of the garden will get different bits of light. At certain times of year, certain bulbs will come to grow before others and so on.
Nikki: And how this concept of wellness is just like that garden. You know, if something's not catching the sun and not giving you that joy and that sparkle that it might have been, then go plant some seeds in another corner and see what grows over there. It doesn't mean you've failed at a wellness technique or that intervention, whatever you want to call it. It just means that right now, maybe the sun's shining in a different spot.
Nikki: And I know that I will love to get back to a regular practice one day because undoubtedly it's good for me, but right now I'm having to plant some seeds elsewhere because I don't need it as much. I'm not as mentally unwell because I am still using lots of really good tools elsewhere. And I think that's our default to failing. You know, I tried mindfulness, but I couldn't do it. What does that mean? You know, what did you learn from it? And actually, it doesn't mean it's done. Well, it may actually be never for you. Cool. That's absolutely fine. And it also may be something that you tried, you liked, and you come to in a few years. It's just always a melting pot, isn't it? Our toolkit around wellness is always changing. So many factors that affect it, and factors that are also outside of our control too.
Diane: And I think everything that we're talking about here is one of the big reasons why I was so drawn to your program, actually, because you were always reminding us that, you know, there is no perfect. If you're doing it, you're doing it right. You know, just take what works for you right now, leave the rest.
Diane: And just being so open with us about, you know, I've, I fell off the Zen train recently. I'm trying to get back on myself. Or even just saying to people, you know, have your camera on, have your camera off, whatever feels better. Just reminding us all to have that compassion for ourselves and that every day is different. Every time you do come to some form of mindfulness, it's going to be different.
Diane: And if we can check in with ourselves and see what's there for us right now in this moment, and just take what we need in this moment, then that's all we can do. And that's doing it right, quote unquote, right? If there is a right.
Nikki: Is it right? Indeed? Yeah, absolutely. And all we're ever really trying to do, particularly when it's this kind of Western interpretation of mindfulness, you know, we're not actually encouraging people to adopt a new religion, so to speak. We're just pulling out the best bits of what is based on Eastern spiritual religious philosophies, where people do live and breathe this. But the Western interpretation is about pulling out some really helpful principles and doing what we can to integrate them into our lives. Meanwhile, the world continues to move ever faster. Pressure doesn't seem to get any less. And yeah, you've got to wonder how things are going to turn out eventually in the end in terms of just the absolute madness of the relentlessness of the world.
Nikki: I did really want to mention something, which I think is so important as well in terms of my learning, which is that a few years ago, it was in 2019, I was like, honestly, why am I depressed again? And you've probably been here, right, with your PMDD, like, this is just ridiculous. I have nothing to be depressed about right now. Like, what is this?
Nikki: And I've realized that there was this real theme for me around when things were not sparkly and new anymore, right? And the adrenaline had dropped. My response slowly was to become more and more depressed. And this is most noticeable in employment, in job, in perhaps the choices I'm making around my kind of personal life and all the rest was just always chasing the next adrenaline hit, the next sparkly new thing. I was like, what is that? This is so frustrating. I've always had friends who've been in jobs for like 10, 20 years. I'm like, how on earth is that possibly even possible? I can't imagine not always just wanting to do something different.
Nikki: Anyway, this led me down this really interesting journey of being diagnosed with ADHD. And going back on to antidepressants more as an ongoing mood stabilizer to help me in the times where the sparkly new thing feels like it's a thing of the past, I'm looking for the next sparkly new thing. So making that decision once and for all to kind of stay on that.
Nikki: Realizing why certain types of meditation have always suited me much better. Like a very guided metta meditation holds your brain much more clearly. And also a yoga nidra meditation, which is like a very, very quick moving body scan meditation, has always been my favorite. And it also made me realize why it was those types of meditations were the ones that I found more comforting. Because if you have ADHD and your brain is just the bounciest thing, you know, much, much more than most people's normal drift. This is like just a constant bounce of your brain.
Nikki: It explained, A, why I was drawn to it. B, why I was probably more predisposed to being affected by trauma as well, because ADHD definitely plays into that. But also why, over time, it has been right from a wellness perspective for me to look for something else and swap things in and out, because that's the way my brain likes to experience the world, is with things that are kind of constantly changing and different and new. So yeah, that's the kind of, you know, we're all always learning, aren't we? But that has been really interesting to lay that over. My mindfulness journey has been really interesting too.
Diane: And thank you so much for sharing that. One, for just sharing your experience, but two, because I do believe there is quite a big overlap, or, you know, sort of when you think about the concentric circles of PMDD and ADHD. I do believe there's quite an overlap there.
Nikki: And with trauma. Very much with trauma. Yes. Because I mean, it's like anything, you could read one book and it would tell you that ADHD is just a manifestation of trauma. You can read another book and it'll tell you that it absolutely isn't and it's an inherited trait. So there's no clear line around this, and I'm quite comfortable with that ambiguity.
Nikki: But having a tool that explained to me why historically my brain has been so bouncy, so adrenaline-filled, so desperate to chase the next new thing. My whole life has been very, you know, I've never taken major risks, but, you know, I was trekking through far-flung Nepal and China when I was 18 with a friend without a second thought because I just wanted to do the most daring thing I could find.
Nikki: It's just helped to make another piece of the jigsaw puzzle come into just a bit more clarity. Also why I find it so hard to sit down. In irony, I would always say 10 of Zen was about, I couldn't sit down for more than 10 minutes. So that was, like, maximum. I can't really sit down now. I don't sit down unless I'm just working, hyper-focusing at my desk. And that is all tied up in the old ADHD thing.
Diane: But that's such a big part of it for everyone, don't you think? It's just finding what works for you and what works for you one day may not be the thing that works for you the next.
Nikki: Yeah.
Diane: And what works for you in one season of life may not be the thing that works in the next season of life. And in fact, I think I probably took some notes from you when I first kind of really re-devoted myself to mindfulness with my own PMDD. And then as I was developing my program, because it really was a matter of figuring out what was going to work with the way I was feeling currently with PMDD and the way that my capacity felt less.
Nikki: Isn't it just annoying that there's not a recipe? It just is annoying, isn't it? Because it would all just be so much easier for like, right, if I just do these five things for the rest of my life, I'm going to feel mentally stable. Well, that's not going to happen. It just doesn't work like that, does it?
Diane: No, and life doesn't work like that. And that's a lesson I've really had to learn.
Nikki: That really is the biggest lesson, the curveballs are coming for us all.
Diane: Yes. The curveballs. Oh my God. Nikki, I'm mindful of time, but first I want to share a little bit about my program.
PROGRAM NOTE: LIVE BETTER WITH MINDFULNESS FOR PMDD (49:39)
Diane: Live Better with Mindfulness for PMDD is three months of mindfulness and acceptance coaching developed specifically for those of us living with PMDD, and you can do it and benefit from it really at any stage of your PMDD journey. Because with the tools you'll add to your toolbox, you can put the brakes on when you're freaking out or have something to help you get through life while waiting on a diagnosis.
Diane: You'll begin to invite more space between you and your thoughts and feelings so that you can identify less with your PMDD and reconnect more with your true self. And as you discover or rediscover your values, you'll find yourself able to say no to the things that really don't serve you, and yes to the things that bring you closer to living the kind of life you want to live. Because you can live a richer, more meaningful life with PMDD.
Diane: Now, if you're thinking, I've tried mindfulness before, or all that sounds nice, but I just don't feel like I have the capacity right now to sit and do long meditations or learn something new or add one more thing to my life, I hear you. I felt the same. I knew from how mindfulness helped me with PTSD that it could help me with PMDD, but I needed to find a new way to do it.
Diane: So I created this program where everything's really short and simple. There are no hour-long sessions to sit through, and you don't have to remember to practice mindfulness or try a mindfulness exercise because I'm there inviting you and prompting you throughout the week.
Diane: So if you're interested, here's your next step. Go to the show notes and click the link to book a chat with me. There's no cost involved and it's commitment free, and we get to chat PMDD and what's worked for you and what hasn't and what questions you have about the program. I would love to get to meet you. All right, let's get back to the podcast.
GETTING BETTER AT FEELING INSTEAD OF TRYING TO FEEL GOOD ALL THE TIME (51:10)
Diane: So I do want to ask you, and maybe we've, you know, kind of said some of this already in different ways, but I do want to ask, given all your experiences personally and professionally with birth trauma work, your own experiences of trauma, your own experiences of motherhood, do you have any particular insights that you would like to share about, or maybe things you've learned about how mindfulness could potentially benefit someone who maybe has experienced chronic illness or birth trauma or parenthood?
Nikki: I always, when people are asking me for recommendations, someone stopped me outside a Pilates class the other day because they recognized me and disclosed loads of information and just basically asked for help. And it's quite useful to think of it in that scenario, because I always say to people, emphasize that it's a melting pot of different things. There is no shame about taking medication. There is no shame about accessing therapy. There is no shame about being a meditator and doing that too.
Nikki: So that it's always encouraging people to consider the variety of tools that they might have at their disposal because it's really individualized, right? And that's what I've said. Depends on the day, the human situation. I think it would just have to cut back around to the compassion work.
Nikki: I think Tara Brach is still one of the teachers whose meditations, probably the only teacher whose meditations I still adore, because they are gentle and kind, and they go to the heart of struggle and challenge, and they normalize those things. So I would just really encourage people to read more, to look her up, to Google her, to listen to some of her free meditations and play around, if you can, just with a concept of kindness and self-compassion.
Nikki: Because it does feel like a big leap, but it just helped to make those difficult days a little bit less difficult when we can just say, you know, some of those phrases we used to say at 10 of Zen, it's real to feel. Yes, it's real to feel. It's our emotions don't define who we are, and all of those kinds of things. It's okay to be present instead of perfect. Those mantras just are born out of putting a compassionate lens over our emotions.
Nikki: And we chastise ourselves so much for not feeling good. And I do that myself. We all do it. It's kind of ingrained in us. And yet, the reality of our human experience for the rest of our lives is going to be that we don't feel good sometimes, and probably even maybe more often than we do feel good, right?
Diane: We don't talk about that.
Nikki: That is being human, right? We don't talk about that. We've marketed wellness as this aspirational thing that everyone should have, and if you've got it, then you're somehow superhuman. But actually, yeah, it's done a lot of harm to a lot of people, I think. Befriending the tough stuff, realizing that you're not alone when you're facing your deepest, darkest days. I think there's just so much power in that.
Diane: I think you're so right. And I think that's probably, you know, one of the biggest things that I was drawn to in your work. And you introduced me to the work of Shamash Alidina, and he often says, now I'm going to get it wrong, but it's essentially that we're not trying to feel better.
Nikki: Yeah. We're trying to get better at feeling.
Diane: Feeling. That's it. Yes. We're not trying to feel better, we're trying to get better at feeling.
Nikki: And sitting with discomfort.
Diane: And sitting with discomfort. Yes.
Nikki: Diane, I mean, that is at the core of so many issues with particularly people who identify as women, particularly. Yeah, sitting with discomfort, you know, because we're told to make discomfort go away by pleasing others and doing better and doing things differently. We're not taught to sit with discomfort, and no one likes, it's not an enjoyable process, but it's what stops us doing so many things, not in the least having honest conversations when really that's what we need to have. So yeah, you're right.
Diane: Showing up as humans, just showing up as humans.
Nikki: We just don't meet one, we don't, one human soul does not meet another human soul very often, do they?
Diane: Right. And for as much as it's completely human and completely normal to have the full range of feelings and emotions, somewhere along the line we were taught or shown or learned that what we need to do is fight those. But as you've said, and as I think many therapists say, you know, like what we resist persists. And in many ways, all that fighting can make our experience feel even worse. So yeah, I do like that you say that probably the biggest work is that self-compassion.
Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. And it's work. It's real work. And maybe something you don't have to do on your own. Like my toolkit now is to take medication daily. I have therapy every other week, will do probably for the rest of my life. I do some form of exercise every week. I try and put in these pockets of mindful moments when I can and hold onto those principles around self-compassion. And I focus on the people who top me up where I can. And then that's kind of it for me at the moment. But that is, you know, for me at the moment. It'll keep changing.
Diane: Right. That's what works for you right now. You are allowing yourself to, you're inviting those things in and just saying, yeah, well, that's what works for me. So let's do it.
MAKE BIRTH BETTER AND THE SUPPORT THAT EXISTS FOR BIRTH TRAUMA (58:42)
Diane: Nikki, I could go on and on with you about so many things we've talked about today, but I am respectful of your time. So I just want to give you an opportunity, if you would like to, share anything that you'd like to about the latest work that Make Birth Better is doing and how people can connect.
Nikki: So really just go to the website, www.makebirthbetter.org. If you're on Instagram, go to @birthbetter, and have a look. Loads of ways to get involved. But if you think something in your journey towards becoming pregnant or trying to be pregnant, your birth, labor, or experiences surrounding that or experiences that came after have left you feeling really distressed, then you're not alone. So have a look at our website and we welcome support. We support people all the way around the world, particularly UK, of course, because we're UK-based, but we do have a lot of people supporting us on other continents too. So yeah, come and have a look.
Diane: Yes. And you also offer many resources for any sort of professionals who work with birthing people or really just have any kind of, I guess, engagement with any part of that birthing experience.
Nikki: Yes, we do. So just have a look. There's tons of free stuff, tons and tons of free stuff for parents and for professionals. And also really importantly, you know, the other half of our work is about raising awareness and providing support to the professionals who are being traumatized by their work too, which is very, very common, unfortunately. So it's all there to have a little look through. And just thank you for having me, Diane. I'm going to go and pick up the kids now. Oh, deep breaths.
Diane: Well, I appreciate you sharing this time with me. Thank you so much, Nikki. It's really a pleasure. Bye bye.
OUTRO (01:00:35)
Hey, PMDD friend. If you want to be the first to know when a new episode is coming out, head to the show notes to join the Mindfulness for PMDD email list. I'll send you a heads up when I've scheduled a new episode to be published. I'll also give you sneak peeks at topics I'm working on and guests that I've booked. And maybe you can even submit your requests and suggestions for upcoming episodes. Get on the list of the show notes below this episode.
Thank you so much for listening. If you liked the show, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. For links to everything mentioned in this episode, you can check out the show notes and you can find me, Diane DeJesus, on Instagram @mindfulnessforpmdd. Now I invite you to pause, take a breath, and look around.
